Jesus and His God

Sunday, October 5, 2008 - God and Son of God? Part 2

Posted in Trinity Topics
This is further response to:

Blog of the Good Shepherd

The statement is made that "Christians believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully God." Actually, this is not true, since there are many, many Biblically-oriented Christians who do not believe this. What this should actually state is that Christians who believe in the trinitarian dogma, and some other dogmas that have been added by man,  believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully God. The Bible itself never mentions such a duality as described by trinitarians, for such dogma has to be assumed, added to, and read into, each scripture that is presented to allegedly support the assumed dogma.

Trinitarians assume this idea to be true and then go all through the words of Jesus and claim that parts of the words apply to Jesus in his alleged God "nature," and his being the Supreme Being, and that other parts of his words apply to Jesus as his being a human being, which being is not the Supreme Being. They will often split one sentence of Jesus two or three ways so as to make some parts of it apply to the alleged Jesus the Supreme Being, and other parts of the same sentence apply to Jesus the human being (who is not the Supreme Being.)

Following their reasoning through, Jesus is now two beings, one who is the Supreme Being, and another who is not the Supreme Being, for they claim that Jesus is right now still a human being, with a body of flesh, so that it would be only that human being that would address another as Supreme Being in Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12. Likewise, when Paul and Peter refer to the God and Father of Jesus (Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3,11:31; Ephesians 1:3; 4:6; 1 Peter 1:3), they would add to this that this refers to the human being Jesus, and not the alleged Supreme Being Jesus. Thus, right now in the heavens, according this dogma, Jesus the human has another who is his Supreme Being.

Following such logic through to its logical end (which logic the trinitarian dogma simply ignores), then Jesus is right now as a human being that is not the Supreme Being, but rather lower than the Supreme Being, and he is also right now the Supreme Being who is not the human being, Jesus. In effect, it would claim that Jesus has two different sentiencies: (1) One sentient being that is omniscient; and (2) one sentient being that is not omniscient, and evidently is not aware of all that the alleged Jesus as the omniscient being is aware of. -- Mark 13:32; John 14:10; Revelation 1:1.

By his having two different sentiencies at the same time, one of which is not aware of the other, doesn't this actually draw the conclusion that Jesus himself is two different persons? Trinitarians deny that Jesus is two persons, but, in actuality, what other conclusion can we come to, if we take thier reasoning to the logical conclusions? Of course, some trinitarians will admit that their dogma isn't logical, and claim that we cannot understand God, and by this they justify the illogic of their added dogma. Some even offer the illogic of their dogma as proof that their dogma is true, claiming that since we cannot fully understand God, then there is no reason to fully understand the added-on dogma. In reality, why add such to the scriptures when the scriptures can be seen to fully in harmony without adding such dogma to the scriptures?

This study is being taken to:

http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/10/05/gspt2/

I plan to remove this series from this blog in the next few days, Yahweh willing.
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Friday, September 5, 2008 - God and Son of God? Part 1

Posted in Trinity Topics

The Blog of the Good Shepherd attempts to answer the question of how Jesus can be both the son of God, and yet also be God. We will be addressing the answers given on that blog in this series of posts, as well as providing the scriptural answer to the question.

The questioner asked pertaining the meaning the words "Messiah" and "Christ," and as to whether these words mean "son of God." In this post, we will be discussing the meaning of the words "Messiah" and "Christ."

We read in Smith's Bible Dictionary, under the word "Messiah":
This word (Mashiach ) answers to the word Christ (Christos ) in the New Testament, and is applicable in its first sense to any one anointed with the holy oil.
Studylight's online Lexicon gives the meaning of the Hebrew word:

  • anointed, anointed one
    1. of the Messiah, Messianic prince
    2. of the king of Israel
    3. of the high priest of Israel
    4. of Cyrus
    5. of the patriarchs as anointed kings

  • Thus, the word in the Bible, in a general way, applies to anyone who is "anointed." As such the priests in the Old Testament were Christs, as well as were the kings of Israel.

    The word, of itself, does not mean savior, son of God, redeemer, deliverer, etc. Nevertheless, there were promises in the Old Testament of one who was to come as Messiah, who would also be a deliverer, and who was to a son given by the Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus the term "Messiah" is often used as related to those promises. This promised Messiah was to come as the seed of the man, David, and of Jesse, the father of David (Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5); thus, in the New Testament, Jesus often refers to himself with the title, "the Son of the Man" (Matthew 9:6; 12:40; 16:28 -- most translations drop the definite article in this title, making it "Son of Man").

    The Messiah, however, was to be a "son" given to Israel by Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Isaiah 9:6,7) In Luke this one is identified as "the son of the Most High." The only Most High is identified in the Old Testament as "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." In the New Testament he is identified as the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus." Jesus is never once identified in the scriptures as the "Most High," but only as the "son of the Most High," the one sent by the only true God, the only Most High. -- -- Genesis 14:22; Exodus 3:15; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16; 17:3; 2 Corinthians 11:32; Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.

    The One who anointed Jesus was the only Most High, Yahweh. Being "anointed" by the Most High, therefore the words Messiah and Christ applied to Jesus show that Jesus is not Yahweh who anointed him. -- Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38.

    Thus, there is nothing in the term Messiah that would indicate that Jesus is both Yahweh, the only true God, as well as the Son of Yahweh. Only the God and Father of Jesus is identified as the only true God in the Bible. (John 17:3) Jesus is indeed the Son of Yahweh, the only Most High, but he is not the only Most High of whom he is the Son.

    This study is being taken to:
    http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/10/05/53/

    It will, God willing, be removed from this site in a few days.

    To be continued in Part 2
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    Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - The "One Lord" Fallacy

    Posted in Trinity Topics

    Some trinitarians will quote Deuteronomy 6:4 from the King James Version (or similar translation) like this: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Then they will turn to 1 Corinthians 8:6, where we read that to the church there is "one Lord Jesus Christ." There is "one Lord", they say, and that "one Lord" is Jesus. Most scholars should know that the two scriptures are not speaking of the same thing. In Deuteronomy 6:4, the KJV, as well as many other translations have substituted "LORD" for the divine name. This should not be done, and to those ignorant of the truth, the above reasoning seems logical. Some will claim that the Greek word "kurios", often rendered "the Lord" in the New Testament, means "Yahweh", since in the extant Greek NT manuscripts we find that kurios is often substituted for the divine name. Such is sophistry, however, for kurios is used of others than Yahweh in the NT, as well as in other Greek writings.* The word "kurios" does not mean "Yahweh", any more than the Hebrew words for "Lord", such as "adon" or "adonai"**, mean "Yahweh". 1 Corinthians 8:6 is not identifying Jesus as the one Yahweh of Deuteronomy 8:6.
    ==========
    *See our studies on the divine name:
    http://name.reslight.net


    Likewise, sometimes our trinitarian neighbors will compare Deuteronomy 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 6:8 with Zechariah 14:9, using the King James Version, or a similar translation, to reach the conclusion that the "one Lord" of these scriptures is Jesus. Zechariah 14:9, reads, according to the King James Version, "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." By use of the word "LORD" in all caps, the KJV shows that in the Hebrew, the divine name appears, and that "the LORD" has been substituted for the divine name. Thus the World English Bible translation renders this verse in this manner: "Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and his name one." By this we can readily see that Zechariah 14:9 is not speaking about the Lord Jesus, as in 1 Corinthians 8:6, but rather of Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus.
    ==========
    See:
    Jesus is Not Yahweh
    http://godandson/reslight.net/jesusnotyhwh.html


    Others will say that Yahweh is referred to as "Lord" many times in the Hebrew scriptures, such as Genesis 15:2,8, Exodus 4:10; 5:22; 15:17; 23:17; 24:17; Deuteronomy 3:24; 9:26; 10:17; Joshua 3:13; 7:7; and many more. Thus, they ask, how can only Jesus be the "one Lord", as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6, if Yahweh is also "Lord"? Actually, 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not state that ther is only "one Lord". Let us read 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 from Young's Literal Translation: "for even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven, whether upon earth -- as there are gods many and lords many -- yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him." What it says is that "to us [to the church] there is one Lord "through whom are all things, and we through him." Yahweh is "Lord", but he is not the "one Lord" through whom are the all (Greek transliteration: ta panta). Thus to the church, God has appointed one Lord through whom all things are provided from the God and Father of Jesus to the church (as well as the blessings of the age to come), including the existence of the believers as new creatures in Christ. -- John 1:17; Romans 3:22; 5:10,21; 2 Corinthians 1:20; 5:17,18; Galatians 4:7; 6:15; Ephesians 1:5; 2:10; Philippians 1:11; Titus 3:6.


    Paul had just written concerning the idol-gods of the nations, and declares that the informed Christian knows that the idols are nothing. It is these that Paul refers to as those who are "called" gods. On earth, of course, the idols are something in that the carved images are made of wood or stone, and wood and stone is indeed "something", but as far as having the will and might to bring about or influence events in the world to a purposeful outcome, these gods are nothing. Thus, while they are "called" gods, they are not so by nature, which nature is special "might, strength", power, as based on the Hebraic meaning of the words that are translated as "God/god"*. (Galatians 4:8) They have no special might of themselves to perform any prophecy, any purpose, that might be attributed to them. In the heavens, the sun, the moon, stars and constellations, etc., have been called "gods". The sun, the moon, the stars, etc., are indeed something, as far as the substances that are combined in their make-up is concerned. But they are nothing as far as the claim that these are "gods", in that they do not have any will or might bring about any purposeful outcome amongst the intelligent creation, they are "nothing". Yet these have been called "gods" and "lords". The word Adonis comes from the Hebrew word "Adon", meaning "Lord". Thus these are "called" gods and lords, although they are not so by nature, as they, of themselves, cannot perform or accomplish any will, prophecy, or purpose that might be attributed to them. Most are familiar with the usage of the word "baal" (meaning "the Lord", "lord", or "the master") and its usage regarding false gods.
    =========
    *See
    Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
    http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html


    But Paul continues, "as there are gods many and lords many." The Westcott and Hort Interlinear has this as: "as even are gods many and lords many." Paul acknowledges that there are those who are "called" gods who have no might, no power, and yet he also goes on to acknowledge that there are indeed "many gods and many lords". Does the Bible speak of others than Yahweh as god or lord? Yes, it does. Moses was said to made a god -- a mighty one -- to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel were spoken of as the ELOHIM, the might (as a collective body), in Israel. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 -- see Acts 23:5) The angels are spoken of as "gods" (elohim) in Psalm 82:6,7. (compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4.) The wicked spirit that impersonated Samuel is called elohim, a god, a mighty one. (1 Samuel 28:13) Various kings are referred to as "gods" -- "the strong" (KJV) -- in Ezekiel 32:21. All of these are indeed "gods", and while they have might, strength, power, they do not have such of their own being, but only as they have received such from the Might of the universe, Yahweh. Likewise, many are indeed "lords" in various capacities. The Hebrew word "adon", means "lord" or "master". This word is used of a master over slaves (Genesis 24:14,27), rulers (Genesis 45:8), and husbands. (Genesis 18:12) The original Hebrew text contained only consonants, and adon appears is represented by the four consonants: "aleph-dalet-vav/waw-nun", corresponding somewhat to our A-D-W-N. Some transliterate this as "'adown". Two other forms of adon are adoni (my Lord), and adonai, my Lords (plural), or a plural intensive -- the plural form used as a superlative -- of "my Lord") The form "adoni" ("my Lord") is represented by the Hebrew characters "aleph-dalet-nun-yod" (corresponding, roughly to the English characters ADNY. The Masoretes, in about the third century or later after Christ, added the vowel point roughly called "quamets" (sounds like the English "a" in the word "all") to form the word "adonai". They added this vowel point wherever they believed that the word referred to Yahweh, and not someone else. Where ADNY appeared to be referring to someone else than Yahweh, they added the vowel point roughly called "hireq", corresponding to the English letter "i" carrying the English short "i" sound, as in the word "machine". This is usually transliterated from the Masoretic text as "adoni".

    Once in a while someone will claim that, while "lord" in the Old Testament may be used of others than Yahweh, in the New Testament the word "kurios" is only used of Jesus and his Father. Let us examine to see if this is true.


    The Hebrew form adoni is used of Jesus in Psalm 110:1: "Yahweh says to my Lord [adoni], "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet." This scripture is translated into the Greek as "kuriw [an inflection of kurios] mou" [literally, "lord of me"] in Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42; and Acts 2:34, where it is applied to Jesus as David's Lord. Thus we can say that Kurios of the New Testament corresponds to the Hebrew word adown (and its variations).


    While there are several instances in the parables of Jesus that have the word "kurios" applied to master of a house, or the master of the workers, etc., some may claim that these instances actually apply the word indirectly to Jesus. It is interesting to note, however, that the King James Version renders kurios as "sir" in Matthew 21:30; John 4:11,15,19,49; 5:7; 12:21; as "master(s)" in Mark 12:35; Luke 14:21; 16:13; and as "owners" in Luke 19:33. In many of these instances, it is clear that the speaker is not addressing Jesus as "Yahweh", but simply as an address to a man. Nevertheless, in Matthew 27:63; Acts 17:16,19,30; Ephesians 6:5,9; Colossians 4:11, we have definite instances where the Greek word Kurios is used of others than God or Jesus. Thus it is indeed true that there are indeed "many lords", as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6. None of these "lords", however, is the "one Lord" "through whom" the church receives all things, nor are the members of the church "through" any of these other lords.

    Paul further states: "yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him." Several words are usually added by translators to the Greek here, and Young's translation above shows two words added by the brackets []. However, it does not show that the word "things" is also added. The Westcott & Hort Interlinear has "ta panta" as "the all (things)", with the word "things" in parentheses, denoting that it is added to the rendering. The Greek phrase "ta panta" literally means "the all", pertaining to the church. The all that the church has is "of" or "from" the one God, the God and Father of Jesus. "The all" is "from" any of the other who are indeed "gods", and certainly not from any of the idols that are "called" "gods". The believer has offered himself "to" the God and Father of Jesus, through Jesus. -- Acts 20:32; Romans 5:10; 6:10,11; 12:1; 14:8; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 9:11; Galatians 2:19; Ephesians 5:20; Philippians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 7:19,25; 11:6; 12:28; 13:15; James 4:7,8; 1 Peter 2:5; 3:18; 4:6.


    The scriptures identify the only true God -- the Supreme Being, the "might" of the universe -- as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and the prophets. (Jeremiah 10:10; 42:5) Jesus identified the God he prayed to as the same God as that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and by stating that his Father is "the only true God" signified that there is only one true Supreme Being, one true Might of the universe. (Luke 20:37; John 8:54; 17:1,3) Who sent the prophets? None other than Yahweh, the Father of Jesus. (Judges 6:8; 1 Samuel 3:20; 1 Kings 16:12; 2 Kings 14:25; 17:3; 2 Chronicles 25:15; Jeremiah 28:12; 37:2,6; 46:1; Ezekiel 14:4; Hosea 12:13; Haggai 1:3,12; 2:1,10; Zechariah 1:1; Acts 3:8) It is this same Yahweh -- the only true God, the God and Father of Jesus -- who also sent Jesus. This same God is therefore the God and Father of Jesus. -- Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1.


    Jesus is appointed as the one Lord of the church by Yahweh, the God of Jesus. There is one God, the Father, Yahweh, the God of Israel, who sent Jesus (John 17:1,3), and this one God has appointed for the church (as well as for the world regarding the age to come) one Lord, Jesus. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Psalm 2:2,6,8; 45:7; Isaiah 9:7; 61:1; Matthew 28:18; Luke 1:32; John 3:35; 5:22,26,27,30; Acts 2:36; 5:31; 10:42; 17:31; Romans 14:9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:17,20-22.


    http://godandson.reslight.net/echad-one.html


    Christian love,

    Ronald

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    Saturday, July 22, 2006 - Jesus and His God

    Posted in Trinity Topics
    Many do not think of Jesus as having a God, a Supreme Being who is superior to himself. It is generally believed amongst the Christian community that Jesus is the Supreme Being. However, God has revealed by means of his holy spirit through the scriptures that Yahweh (Jehovah) Himself is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus thus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
     
    This blog is in conjunction with the site "Jesus and His God" and we invite your comments concerning or related to the site.
     
    Christian love,
    Ronald

    The following scriptures have been referred to in the comments. Please see the links provided below for more information on those scriptures:

    John 14:9
    http://clearblogs.com/jesusandhisgod/1800/John+14%3A9.html

    http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=429.0

    http://godandson.reslight.net/john-14-9.html

    "if you hear the father you would hear Him."

    I am not sure what scripture this is meant to reflect, if any. Possibly John 6:45.

    http://clearblogs.com/jesusandhisgod/166765/John+6%3A45.html

    John 1:1,2

    http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=168.0

    http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=435.0

    http://clearblogs.com/jesusandhisgod/112473/John+1%3A1+and+the+Trinitarian.html

    http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=65.0

    http://godandson.reslight.net/john-1.html

    http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/08/john-112-word-was-mighty.html

    http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/09/john-112-mmcelhaney.html
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